Paticcasamuppada and the Nidanas, October 3, 2016

Recording: https://mudlotus.org/audio/Paticcasamuppada20161003.mp3

So, today we are going to talk about paticcasamuppada, which is a Pali term for dependent origination.  It's another way of saying that all things are interdependent.  It's a way of saying that everything that arises has causes and that everything that arises is itself a cause.  The interesting part in that is the 'sam' which means together.  So, it arises together.  It co-arises. So, if you think of a wonderful team, right, how does that team work?  It co-creates things.  The work of that team comes together.  It is not like, oh, this person created it, this person does this, and then that person does that.  It is not like a waterfall.  No, they made it together.  So, dependent origination is more of a traditional translation, but it is a co-arising of things dependent on other things.  It truly is more of an interdependence.

Why is this topic important?  It is important because, what does Gilbert say?  The English translation of this?  Causes and conditions never fail. This is a very important aspect of understanding how everything works. This is the way everything works.  It is a really important part of Right View.  When it is experienced, it is part of Right View Actualized.  When this interdependence, paticcasamuppada, is actually experienced, it is not a concept anymore, it is Right View Actualized.

Just as an indicator of how important this concept is, you may have heard of Shariputra, who was one of the two major disciples of the Buddha.  Shariputra was a seeker.  He was going around looking for teachings.  He and the other major disciple, Maudgalyayana, these two, they decided, "You know what, we're going to split up and we're going to look for teachings, for a teacher.  That way, if I find somebody, I'll tell you.  And if you find somebody, you'll tell me."

So what happens is, Shariputra is walking and he sees a disciple of the Buddha called Assaji.  Now Assaji looks so free and so light that Shariputra can immediately [inaudible] that something, there's something going on here that I should know about.  So, he asks him, "Hey, who's your teacher? What are you learning?" And Assaji says, "It's the Buddha. He teaches a lot of things, mainly, he talks about how if this arises, then that arises.  And if this ceases, then that ceases."

Now Shariputra is so advanced if you will, that, that's it.  Just hearing that, he has a moment, it is called stream entry, a moment when the self just falls away. He then becomes a student of the Buddha.  His friend Maudgalyayana also becomes a student of the Buddha, and they become the senior disciples of the Buddha.

So basically, if this, then that.  If not this, then not that.  If A, then B.  If not A, then not B.  Simple as that.  So that is the principle of causality, if you will.  It's like the Newtonian law, but not just of physics; of all dimensions, not just the physical.  If this, then that.  If not this, then not that.

So that is the essence of paticcasamuppada, dependent origination or interdependence.

There's also a more step-by-step detail that the same term applies to, it is called the twelve links of dependent origination that we will look into. But this is actually the most important part to understand about dependent origination, the law of causality or of interdependence.

Nagarjuna has this thing to say about dependent origination (Mulamadyamakakarika, Chapter 24, Verse 18 from The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way: Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika, Translation and Commentary by Jay L. Garfield).

Whatever is dependently co-arisen

That is explained to be emptiness.

So he says that emptiness itself is dependent origination.  So, what is emptiness?  Somebody be brave.

Matt: Impermanence

Sentha: Impermanence is emptiness.  Is that all emptiness is?  Now we are talking about a conceptual understanding of emptiness.

Matt: Yes

Sentha: So, you're saying that that's it.  Impermanence is emptiness, and that's it?

Matt: Yes

Sentha: Then why do you have two terms?

Matt: It is precisely emptiness.

Sentha: Impermanence is part of the conceptual definition of emptiness.  The other part is the non-self of all things. In other words, there is no independent anything.  There is no independent you, there is no independent me, there is no independent floor and room.  It's all interdependent. And why is it all interdependent?  Because causes and conditions never fail.  Because?

Matt: Causes and conditions never fail?

Sentha: Causes and conditions never fail.  Because causes and conditions lead to other causes and conditions, right?

Matt: Isn't interdependence a part of impermanence?

Sentha: Impermanence is a characteristic of all things.  So is interdependence.  Both are characteristics of all things. [pause].  Impermanence is also, I would say, the causes and conditions where time is the cause and conditions.

Matt: What is it about impermanence that relies on time?

Sentha: Because impermanence is about time.

Matt: Is it?  Guess my viewpoint is different.

Sentha: What is impermanence?  That all things change.

Matt: But not necessarily just in time, right?

Sentha: Change is measured in time.

Stan: You can only have change, if you have time.

Matt: Well, that's one view point.

Sentha: So, change is measured in dimensions. Yes?

Suzanne: It is linear.

Sentha: Change is linear across a particular dimension of which time could be one, space could be another. Wendy had something to say?

Wendy: The impermanence of things, the way everything is impermanent. For us to actually name it or have the concept of something or anything is outside the box of emptiness. Everything is emptiness, but without us having the concept of something, which is the causes and conditions of something, there would be no thing to be impermanent. It would just be mind.  But we made something, we made some kind of a concept, then that thing becomes impermanent.

Sentha: The thing becomes something that changes over time or over dimensions.

Wendy: Impermanence is based on causes and conditions.  Because without that something to be impermanent, we would not have the basis for causes and conditions.

Sentha: Yeah

Stan: Doesn't causes and conditions lead to a very strict determinism where there is no free will to make any decisions because everything both inside of you and outside of you is caused by something so that there is no free will to change because if you change, it is because of causes and conditions changes.

Wendy: Or you cause the change to make the causes and conditions change. If you are going on the freeway at 100 mph and there is a tree there, if you do not go 100 mph, you will not hit that tree.  You can change what is inevitable by changing your conditions.

Sentha: We are going to go through the twelve links of dependent origination and you will find that there are places to break the links, OK.  May be that will be…

Stan: So it is not absolute determinism.

Sentha: It is not absolute determinism.  When there is ignorance, then what happens is, one thing just simply leads to another.  But when there is clear seeing, then…

Stan: But that is caused by external conditions

Sentha: Free will is the choice to see clearly, which exists every moment.  That is the buddha nature sparkling through.  Our original pure and clear enlightened nature.

Stan: It is not produced by causes and conditions

Sentha: Mind is causes and conditions.  Causes and conditions is just the functioning of mind.  Mind is not apart from causes and conditions.

Stan: That sounds to me like absolute determinism.

Sentha: So, think of it this way.  There is light shining through, covered by murky stuff on the top.  Now, we are getting into the defeated school of Chan if you will. There is dust on the mirror.  But the mirror is always underneath.  It is always capable of reflecting light. But, when it is clouded, what happens is, it feels like it is deterministic.  But only when it is clouded, it feels like it is deterministic.

They call it "choice points" in psychology.  So, you have choices when you are going through life. And what happens, when there is ignorance, those choice points are never clear and apparent.  Life feels very deterministic.  Life feels like, oh, this is  the way my life is, this is all there is, and what else can you expect out of me? But when there is clarity, the choice points become visible.  The choice points are always there.  They just become visible.  So, that is the difference.  That's where it is not deterministic.  The clear vision, also called wisdom, is always a choice that can be made.  It is always available.  Only doesn't seem available. I'm going to talk about the twelve links later, that's gonna lead nicely from here.

Meanwhile,  Nagarjuna says (MMK chapter 24, verse 18):

Whatever is dependently co-arisen

That is explained to be emptiness.

That, being a dependent designation,

Is itself the middle way.

This is like, the snake swallowing its own tail kinda thing.

Suzanne: Ouroboros

Sentha: What's that?

Suzanne: The name of the snake swallowing its own tail is called ouroboros.

Sentha: So, Nagarjuna says, what is emptiness? Whatever is dependently arisen. In other words, this very interdependence, that itself is emptiness.  Because we are explaining that emptiness is dependent origination, that itself is a dependent designation.  He just wants to say, is emptiness empty as well? Yes, emptiness is also empty.  That is what he is saying.

Then he says (MMK, chapter 24, verse 40):

Whoever sees dependent arising

Also sees suffering

This is what we were talking about.  If A happens, then B happens.  If you can see that, you can see how suffering comes to be.  Then he says:

Whoever sees dependent arising

Also sees suffering

And its arising

And its cessation as well as the path.

So, this is a pointer back to the four noble truths.  We know why there is suffering in the world.  We know what causes suffering, the causes and conditions of suffering. Therefore, we also know there's cessation.  This is the same thing as saying, if A, then B.  If no A, then no B.  We know that suffering has a cause, which is craving or attachment.  And there is cessation.  We know that it is possible to stop suffering.  That is the if not A, then not B.

Suzanne: No attachment, no suffering. 

Sentha: That's it.  The path comes out of how do you get to no suffering.  So, there is some work to do there.  There right view and all of the eight-fold path.

Matt: What does it mean, that emptiness is empty?

Sentha: Is emptiness a concrete thing you can cling to?  That you can put your hat on?

Matt: No

Sentha: That's what it means.

There is dependent origination, which is 'If A, then B'.  Emptiness is like, "There is no independent A, nor independent B."  That's emptiness, OK?  Then there is conventional reality, which is like, "But we call A, A.  And we call B, B." OK? We still call A, A. We still call B, B.  OK? When you experience A as empty, and B as empty, not just understand A as empty and understand B as empty.  You experience A as empty, and B as empty, then you are not stuck in ignorance.

New Student: So this is just about attaching to things. If A, then B.  It's not everything in life you're talking about.

Sentha: This is everything in life.  It is all of life.

Student: But wouldn't that be?  I'm trying to think of things that make sense and things that don't.  That's like, "If you smoke, you get lung cancer. If you don't smoke, you won't get lung cancer." But that's not true.  People who smoke don't get lung cancer and people who don't sometimes get lung cancer.

Sentha: It's like this.  If you smoke, there is a 30% chance of lung cancer.  But there is no 30% person. So 30% of persons get lung cancer.  It's something like that.

Student: But it is not an absolute.

Sentha: It is not an absolute.

Student: The people that don't smoke, they still get lung cancer.

Sentha: So, we talk about causes and conditions.  Because there are two kinds of things.  Cause is when you have lung cancer, cause is like, from this, this came about.  Then there is also conditions, which is all the things that are surrounding that contribute to it.  So, there is no just one cause leading to one effect.  The conditions are also important.  The conditions are like, I'm carrying a lot of money, I'm walking in a bad neighborhood, I may lose it all. I'm carrying a lot of money, I'm in an armored truck, excellently protected.  I may be fine.  There are still conditions where you are not getting the result you expect, but conditions are important as well.

Suzanne: I just want to add to that that Johari's windows come into play.  Whereas someone walking down the street may know they have money, but nobody else can see that they have money.  They may be safe or may be not. Whereas, an armored truck rolling down the street, it is understood that there's money in the truck.  Therefore, it is more likely to get hit as a target because it is understood that armored trucks have money.

Sentha: I would say that that is another condition.

Suzanne: That's an example of all of the different aspects that create the causes and conditions. Many factors.

Sentha: In the Hua Yen school, they talk about Indra's Net, which is… If you can visualize that there is a jewel that is connected to other jewels on all sides, more or less like a net, where at every node in the net, there is a jewel.  Think of that jewel as a multi-faceted diamond, that, because of its brilliance, it is reflecting all of the other jewels around it.  So, that's like a symbol of mind in that every node is reflecting every other node.  So every node has an impact on every other node.  So, when we talk about causes and conditions and we say, 'If A, then B', that is a very simplified form.  It is a very simplified example.  But, in practice, what is important is to realize that there is causality.  And causality itself is the key to get out of suffering.  So that is the important thing to clue in to.  And then, when the mind is still, it becomes possible to see causality.  When the mind is free of sticking to the one thing, then it is possible to flow in causality without being stuck in a deterministic kind of mode.

So, we are going to talk about the twelve links (nidanas).  In the Theravadin tradition, the twelve links are more emphasized.  In the Mahayana tradition, just this fact of causality, causes and conditions, how it is something that is reliable, they do not fail. Causes and conditions is the working of mind itself.  It is the working of reality.  That's really the importing thing.  The next important thing is that causes and conditions is the way out of suffering as well.

So, the twelve links themselves are: Ignorance--you can guess that.  It all starts with ignorance.  It's like this one leads to another, leads to another, leads to another.  It is set up in a way that the previous life influences the current life, which influences the next life.  That is one way of looking at it, as a life continuum.  Another way of looking at it is just how things come to be. Not necessarily in the context of various lives.  It is really like a circle.  We are starting the circle with ignorance, and then it comes back and meets the circle again.  It starts with ignorance, which leads to actions that are fueled by ignorance and therefore, they leave behind a disposition.  So, say you do something bad, something bad sticks with you, the bad patterning sticks with you.  So, it's called samskaras or formations.  Samskara in a different context, is more like a precipitation out of ignorant actions.  So, that it is the context in the twelve links.  Samskara is now a conditioning for the consciousness that arises out of this.  In here, the consciousness  is moving towards the next life.  Bear with me.  I'm going to go through this, then we'll talk about it, OK?  

So, there is ignorance, out of which there is ignorant action, and the precipitation, which is the patterning, which is called mental formations, which itself impacts the next life.  It brings into being a consciousness which is conditioned in a certain way.  That's called rebirth consciousness.  And then, from the consciousness, comes into being, it's called mind and body, or it is called name and form.  Basically, there's a little baby, there is a form to it, it is called something.  There is a physical aspect to it and there is a mental aspect to it.  And then, because it is a mind and body, mind and body coming into being is a precursor for the six senses coming into being.  The five physical senses and the mind.  And because there are senses, the senses can come into contact with objects.  From the senses, there is contact.  When there is contact with an object, for instance, I am looking at this bell, what happens is, there is a, it is called feeling, but it is kind of like a sensation.  The more accurate translation would be sensation. It's like, oh, that registers as a sensation, which could be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral.  And when there is a sensation, there is a reaching out, it's a craving.  The reaching out could be either towards or away, or an eh. It's like an attraction or a repulsion.  It is in direct relationship to the sensation.  Was it a pleasant sensation, an unpleasant sensation or a neutral sensation? Based on that it is an attraction, aversion or kind of a boredom.  There is a craving, then from the craving, there is an attachment.  Which is like, I want to take it (the bell).  Once there is a I wanna take it, there is, as me, I want to take it.  So, there is a becoming.  Which itself leads to a future life of birth, and old age and death.  

So, these are twelve steps.  You can think of them as twelve steps in the life of a human being, or you can of it as a twelve steps as a moment where self is born.  Self comes into being.  [To new student], we talk about self as an artificial separation of me from you, from everything else.  That's what we call self.  So, this artificial separation comes into being. There is ignorance that leads to mental formation, that is like a disposition, which makes it ripe for the self to come into being.  So there is something that happens before that makes it ripe for the self to arise.  Then, once the self arises, there is the mind-body, the senses, the contact with another illusory thing, and oh, I want more of, attachment, and then, the condition are ripe for the self to come back, and back, and back.  So that's kind of the dependent origination, the twelve links.

Now, in the Pali cannon, the Buddha lectures on the twelve links, and then, for each of these twelve links, he says, "Oh, old age and death would not happen if there was no birth." And birth would not happen if there was no becoming.  Becoming is like I attach and the self comes into being.  So, birth wouldn't happen if there is no becoming.  Becoming wouldn't happen if there is no attachment.  Attachment wouldn't happen if there is no craving.  He just walks back this whole thing.  So there are the twelve links of causation, which in reverse become the twelve links of cessation.

So, which comes back to your point on, is this deterministic? So, the Buddha's point is that there are these twelve links, where one leads to another.  But at each of those places, that link can be broken.  What Nagarjuna says, he actually takes I think three places that are ripe for unlinking, if you will.

I'll read those verses to you.  He says (MMK Chapter 26, verse 10),

The root of cyclic existence is action.

Therefore, the wise one does not act.

Therefore, the unwise is the agent.

The wise one is not because of his insight.

So, what Nagarjuna says, the very first link, Ignorance, and Ignorance leads to action, that precipitates patterning, if you will.  So, he says that is the root, ignorant action is the root.  The wise one does not act.  The unwise is the agent, is the actor. So, what does he mean, "The wise one doesn't act?"  What is the meaning of that? Will has a clue because I asked him about a Chinese term.  So, we will disqualify him.

Will: What does he mean, "The wise one does not act."

Sentha: The wise one doesn't act.  The wise one is not the agent.  The unwise one is the agent.

Will: The wise ones are not beholden to the conditions of the current situation, whatever it is.  The paticcasamuppada that happens right now.  [inaudible] Is how I understand it.

Sentha: I've gotta say that paticcasamuppada applies to everyone.  There is nothing that is apart from it.  But I understand where you are going.  I do need to clarify that though.

Stan: So does that mean that the wise man who does not act, does not act because of causes and conditions.

Sentha: The wise one is not an agent.

Stan: But he doesn't act because of what he has been taught, or the right view, or coming to class.

Sentha: The wise one does not act because of insight.

Stan: But where does he get the insight?  Causes and conditions.

Sentha: That's true too.  But what it means here is… I think Wendy wants to say something.

Wendy: I was going to say that the opposite of ignorance is wisdom. And wisdom is you are not going to act because everything is illusory and you're not going to follow.  You are not an agent.  You are wise, you know that you are a concept, so you are not an agent.

Sentha: You are not an agent.  That is the key.

Suzanne: Wisdom does not engage.

Sentha: There is no self.  The meaning of 'The wise one does not act' is not that they are not going to engage.  Are they cold stone and dead wood?

Will: So that wise ones act with causes and conditions without a self.

Sentha: Yes.  OK.  There you go.  Wise ones are not apart from causes and conditions.  There is no illusory self.  So there is this word in Daoism.

Will: Wu wei

Sentha: So that word means?  You say it.

Will: I think Gilbert explained it once, I don't remember.  The way I explain it? Just do so that the world goes through you.

Sentha: The literal meaning is non-action.  It doesn’t mean that there is no action happening.  It just means that there is no actor.  There is action happening without an actor.  Does that make any sense at all?  Yes?  Yeah.

New Student:  It seems to me that the wise ones, it is not that they don't act. But they don't react. So, they don't allow the outside causation to flow into them and have their action be a direct result of that.

Sentha: OK. I'm going to tweak that a little bit.  So, the wise one is not simply reacting to circumstances, to causes and conditions.  They are not blindly reacting.  But like Will said, they are letting it flow through without holding on to it.

Suzanne: That's what I meant by engage.

Sentha: OK.  Attach.

Suzanne: Yes, attach.

Sentha: Wisdom is not to attach.  OK.  So, that's weak link number one from Nagarjuna.

Weak link number two, he says (MMK, Chapter 26, verse 11):

With the cessation of ignorance

Action will not arise.

The cessation of ignorance occurs through

Meditation and wisdom.

Which you guys talked about.  So that is weak link number two, ignorance.

So, those are the actual two, the two ones that he identifies. And then he says (MMK, Chapter 26, verse 11):

Through the cessation of this and that

This and that will not be manifest.

The entire mass of suffering

Indeed thereby completely ceases.

So, what he says is, "If A, then B.  If not A, then not B.  That's it.  No suffering."

Suzanne: Can you elaborate a little more on the meaning of this and the meaning of that, theoretically?

Sentha: It is just A and B.  What he says, "Through the cessation of this and that", he means, "Through the cessation of A", "This and that will not be manifest, "B will not manifest."  Why is he using "this and that" and "this and that", is he is saying that it really doesn't matter which and which.

Suzanne: I had a teacher explain that "this" is what is here and now ; "that" is more distant.

Sentha: Oh, that is true conventionally speaking, but here, it just means, from causes and conditions, other causes and conditions come into being. And from the cessation, suffering frees up from the cessation of this and that.  It's not like causes and conditions do not come to be.  It just means that by understanding causes and conditions, suffering ceases to be.  Because the Wu Wei happens through wisdom.  There is no attachment anymore.  There is the flowing with causes and conditions.  There is the working with causes and conditions without self or an actor or an agent.

Any comments, questions?

Matt: So, what were the two points? The one was to reduce ignorance, right?  What was the other one?

Sentha: The other one was action.

Matt: To not act? Or to choose not to act?

Sentha: No agent.  No agent.

Matt: So that's like?

Sentha: There is no self.  Action without self.  That boils down to, in the words we've been using here, we also call it, "Following function".

Matt: And then the second one is just using wisdom.  How are they different?

Sentha: They are linked to each other, right? When there is no ignorance, then action will be without an actor.  How can you get to the cessation of ignorance?  Through meditation and wisdom.  Practice and wisdom.  Which is kind of what Gilbert focuses on all the time: Right View, practice. Yes?

Suzanne: So that's what you mean by ouroboros, the snake eating its own tail.  It all comes full circle.

Sentha: Yeah, they say that the Buddha's teachings are holographic.  You can go from…  For example, we talked about the twelve links, and it's about the four noble truths.  So you can go from one place to another. Happens all the time.